conservative people, who will you vote for?

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Portia
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conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

So I realized that I don't really socialize with any conservatives who aren't my blood relatives. Most my closest friends are progressive secular liberals who will vote for Clinton in the general. Even the more libertarian-leaning of my (male) friends have become more liberal in the past four years.

Both my father and my grandmother loathe Trump, but they're obviously not under-35-white-atheists. (My over-sixty-five white atheist grandparents are as much Democrats as I am. I don't think there's much of a place for non-Christians in the GOP unless you're a seven-figure earner.)

So, I'm not sure what that means for November: a lot of conscientious objectors?

I'm too scared to ask them outright, haha, because there is a lot of right-wing talk radio in their homes. o_O

If you won't vote Clinton (who's a moderate, pragmatist, and hawk, not to mention Christian, so, really a neoliberal), do you watch the world burn and vote Trump?
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Shrinky Dink
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Shrinky Dink »

I took this quiz for kicks and giggles just to see and it is pretty comprehensive. According to it, I am mostly libertarian and side with Gary Johnson 80%.

As for Trump, he is terrifying to me and I think he is a disgusting racist, sexist, lying bigot. I'll admit that I'm mildly interested in seeing what would happen if he became president, but it's coming from the same part of my brain that says, "I wonder what it would be like to drive my car off this bridge" The thought of free fallling through the air seems exhilarating but I'm terrified because I know the ground will hurt! My husband is actually thinking of voting for Trump, but Rubio is his first pick.

I like that Cruz is a proponent for a flat tax, I'm pretty neutral with Rubio, I think Sanders is underestimating the costs of his programs, and I don't trust Clinton with all the stuff that has been going on with email and the FBI. So, I'll probably end up voting for Cruz.

Just to summarize some of the issues that I care about:
Taxes - I want a flat tax. I think the tax code is absolutely ridiculous and there are too many exemptions.
Guns - I am pro-second amendment and in favor of Stand Your Ground laws. If anything, I'd be ok with increasing the communication between mental health facilities and law enforcement to more fully enforce the current rules, but that's about it. Plus, I feel that there are so many guns in the US already, that even if we started changing things drastically, it will only hinder people from legally obtaining gun and won't affect criminals at all.
Higher Education - I feel that federal grants have artificially increased the price of college and I'm not a fan of having the government pay for it at all. We also need to keep a closer eye on for-profit colleges like Stevens Henager and ITT Tech and make sure that all universities are accurately reporting their post-graduation statistics.
Public Education - We're testing our students too much. It costs a lot of money and takes too much time out of learning. We also need to increase art and more creativity. Common core is a good concept, but we shouldn't test on it.
Marijuana - I want to legalize it for medical and recreational use, however, if someone is using it for medical reasons, I want it to be well regulated and preferably in pill form so we can accurately gather information relating to dose and other possible drug interactions.
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Portia
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

If Trump does get the nomination, will you vote for him over Clinton?
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Shrinky Dink
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Shrinky Dink »

If it's between Trump and Clinton, I think I'd vote for someone else anyway.
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Portia
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

Image

Save America! Vote Teen Girl President!
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Shrinky Dink
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Shrinky Dink »

Portia, I'm kind of curious. If you had to vote for a republican candidate, who would you vote for and why?

I feel that political debates tend to turn into a my-team-is-better-than-your-team which doesn't lead to finding similarities or compromises. Personally, if I had to vote for a democrat, I think I would pick Bernie over Hillary because I feel that he has been a little more specific about his plans and I'm pretty ok with what he wants to do even though some things would end up being expensive.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

Shrinky Dink wrote:Portia, I'm kind of curious. If you had to vote for a republican candidate, who would you vote for and why?
Either Kasich, as the least-bad of the current crop and not a national embarrassment, or support a Romney coup if that happened at a brokered convention.

I find the trio of Cruz/Rubio/Trump to be scary on foreign policy, women's rights, and laughably bad tax plans. Kasich/Romney are merely bad, not laughably so.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

Another reason to vote against Cruz or Rubio is that one is loathed and one is, indeed, a "lightweight." Their records are unimpressive to me; whereas, I think Romney showed some genuine across-the-aisle achievements. I think Kasich hasn't made Ohio better, but if we got a Democratic Senate (really my priority regardless of who's in the White House), then I think the damage could be contained.

Not to mention that I don't think the three frontrunners have an ounce of integrity. :-(
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by NovemberEast »

In the early stages, I liked: Fiorina, Carson, Cruz, Paul, Walker (in no particular order)
Then I kind of stopped caring for Carson because he got awkward and everyone else dropped out so...Cruz it is.

Even though I'm actually one of those crazies who loves the Paul family and in 2008 I wrote "rEVOLution" all over the campus sidewalks. Barefoot with those awful feather things in my hair and chalk covered hands. That was me. Oh College.

I did NOT like: Trump, Bush, Christie, Rubio (I used to like him), Kasich, The other people no one cared about?

I didn't like these people because they reminded me of the heads running my state. Most of them are really just former southern democrat racists who only call themselves conservatives because they were baptized and go to church twice a year. I could get more in to that, but it would be a massive rant about that few people here would care to read and might make a few heads explode.

If I had a gun to my head and was being forced to vote for a democrat, I would have to choose Hillary. I have no interest in a Clinton Dynasty, similar to how I had no interest in a Bush one (my kind of conservatives don't like him either), but Bernie Sanders and his "democratic socialism" is basically just communism for a post-capitalist society. My financial nightmare. But then, I think that Hillary believes a lot of the same things as Bernie, she's just afraid to admit it. Which I suppose is a small plus.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Cognoscente »

NovemberEast wrote:Bernie Sanders and his "democratic socialism" is basically just communism for a post-capitalist society.
I'll say! I especially don't like his platform of executing the royal family, seizing farmland and ordering the proletariat to work in collectivist agrarian communes, using central planning to rapidly industrialize the economy (and generating intense famine in the process), and initiating a series of purges of political enemies using his secret police.

Yep. Just like communism.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by yayfulness »

NovemberEast wrote:But then, I think that Hillary believes a lot of the same things as Bernie, she's just afraid to admit it. Which I suppose is a small plus.
Probably the single most amusing and yet frustrating thing about this election cycle, at least to me, has been the incredible divide between what Republicans and Democrats (or right- and left-leaning voters, since so many people are Too Cool For Parties even though they're totally partisan) think about Hillary Clinton. Your attitude is typical of most Republicans - she's incredibly liberal and just poses as a moderate so that she has a reasonable chance at being elected. Bernie Sanders Democrats, on the other hand, tend to think that Hillary is basically a Republican, that there's no difference between her and (say) Kasich or Bush, and that she only pretends to be liberal in order to entice Democrats into voting for her. (Those of you who are my Facebook friends may have seen that I posted a poll a week or two ago; it was meant to measure this phenomenon - having seen the results, I'm fairly confident this is a real thing and not just confirmation bias.)

Personally, I think the far-left Democratic view of her is patently absurd. The Republican view is probably a little more accurate. (Not talking about Benghazi, emails, etc., just where her politics fall on a left-right spectrum.) In my estimation, Clinton essentially represents the status quo. I suspect a Clinton presidency would be basically a less charismatic and more hawkish version of Obama's presidency.

I'm a former Republican. If I still held my original political views, Kasich would probably be my top choice. Rubio would be acceptable, and while I doubt I'd be a Cruz fan, I would 100% side with him over Trump.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Marduk »

I think political compass has it about right, although I would put Bush a bit further to the left than he currently is (and who knows where the hell Trump actually is.) I think there's greater difference between Sanders and Clinton than Clinton and the centrist Republicans (at least, what can be called centrist for the current crop.)

Here's the link: http://www.politicalcompass.org/uselection2016
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by NovemberEast »

Cognoscente wrote:
NovemberEast wrote:Bernie Sanders and his "democratic socialism" is basically just communism for a post-capitalist society.
I'll say! I especially don't like his platform of executing the royal family, seizing farmland and ordering the proletariat to work in collectivist agrarian communes, using central planning to rapidly industrialize the economy (and generating intense famine in the process), and initiating a series of purges of political enemies using his secret police.

Yep. Just like communism.
I never said it was "just like communism." Maybe try thinking a little harder about what I said instead of trying to pat yourself on the back for being clever. Or, maybe ask why I think a certain way. You know, just to further the discussion instead of resorting to re-direction.

It might have gone something like this:

"Hmmmm...why do you think Democratic socialism is communism for post-capitalism? That seems like a big leap to me."

"Hey, thanks for such a thoughtful and polite question. Because of our differing views, I can see how this would seem like a huge leap to you. Hopefully, I can explain how and why I made that jump.

Although there are many "stops" along the train ride from capitalism to communism in either direction, you could simplify it by saying you board the train at capitalism, take a stop to rest/whatever at socialism, and then your next destination from right to left would be communism. Of course, like I said, it's simplified big time. So maybe fault me for it, but know I am aware.

I see socialism (even if democratically chosen) as a sort of halfway house between capitalism and communism. If you don't, you do you, but I do and I fear it. The "post-capitalist" part is important to see how I'm thinking. And you have to understand that I don't think the train ever stops moving. Even if it's at a snail-slow pace. I also feel that once you get on the train, it's hard to get off for long. The country is already on the train. We aren't really about pure capitalism. That is sure. I'd say we're more "corporatism + socialism lite." We have plenty of socialized programs and economic entities and our version of capitalism is pretty mangled. So as for the train, I would rather get off or turn around."


I'm willing to assert it's comments like this that led to the "board apostasy board" discussion.

Portia just asked an honest question (Thanks for asking, Portia!) to those of us in the minority here. And it is due to responses like this, that I end up regretting even bothering because my differing opinions and ideas are rarely wanted or welcome.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Cognoscente »

I'm not saying you aren't welcome. Of course you're welcome! I was teasing you, because the image of benevolent crank Bernie Sanders as a jackbooted dictator is so incongruous, and because broad-sweeping declarations like that (including when folks Godwin a discussion) are usually (not always!) made without a reasonable historical background in mind. I meant no malicious intent.

I apologize for not assuming good faith and I'm happy to have a more in-depth discussion about history and economics, since you're willing to elaborate on your views. I'll come back to this when I have a bit more time.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by NovemberEast »

yayfulness wrote:
NovemberEast wrote:But then, I think that Hillary believes a lot of the same things as Bernie, she's just afraid to admit it. Which I suppose is a small plus.
Personally, I think the far-left Democratic view of her is patently absurd. The Republican view is probably a little more accurate. (Not talking about Benghazi, emails, etc., just where her politics fall on a left-right spectrum.) In my estimation, Clinton essentially represents the status quo. I suspect a Clinton presidency would be basically a less charismatic and more hawkish version of Obama's presidency.
This makes me think, and I don't know how to convey this, so if I don't make sense I can try to clarify.

Do you think the far-left and far-right groups think the "other guys" are all the same because of how far to one side the the "far" guys might be?

Also, I agree that's what a Clinton presidency would look like.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

I know far-left individuals, but in terms of movements/politicians, I don't think they have a viable presence in this country. If you look at the political compass, not one major candidate is in the lower-left quadrant, where I comfortably reside.

"Uncritical faith in tax cuts" is my fiscal nightmare, and is certainly just fiscal irresponsibility, not a prima facie feature of capitalism. I think this article is extremely objective about the failures in the GOP's articles of faith. Reagan tripled the debt. (TIL!)

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/ ... c-delusion
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Portia »

So are there any Warren Harding-type conservatives who are willing to balance the budget on the back of extreme cuts to Social Security, child and home tax credits, and implement the very low defense spending of an isolationist country? Because that's the only way to make massive tax cuts viable without raising the debt. (I'm not bothered by some level of national debt, but given my family member's rants, I take it some on the right are.)

They're third rails, so, it'd be interesting to see someone actually propose returning to the "good old days" of tenements and factory fires.
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by yayfulness »

Just to be clear, when I say "far-left" and "far-right," I mean within the context of American rather than global politics - so maybe the most liberal 10% and most conservative 10% of the country. I'm not being terribly precise with my words here, so I'm sorry if that causes any confusion.

I think I understand what you're saying, NovemberEast, and I think there's probably a lot of truth to it. It's easy to see a lot of nuance in positions that are fairly close to your own, but it's a lot harder to see that nuance in positions that are further distant. It's no different from vision - you see a lot of detail up close, but only vague outlines further away. (Incidentally, this is probably why most people on the left will be instantly skeptical of anyone who puts Bernie Sanders and communism in the same sentence, even if it is in fact justified. The closest thing from the opposite end that I can think of is putting Ted Cruz and theocracy in the same sentence.)
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by Marduk »

yayfulness wrote: (Incidentally, this is probably why most people on the left will be instantly skeptical of anyone who puts Bernie Sanders and communism in the same sentence, even if it is in fact justified....
Even in broad strokes, I'm not sure this is defensible. Communism fundamentally means eliminating individual ownership of the means of production. How is Sanders' position in any way related to communism?

(I also don't think Cruz is theocratic, although I can see a much closer parallel between asserting the necessity of asserting divine provenance in the governing process and suggesting that the religious be the ones in governmental power.)
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Re: conservative people, who will you vote for?

Post by yayfulness »

I guess I'm saying you could make the slippery slope argument for either candidate. You'd have a really hard time convincing me of it, but you could at least make the argument without completely abandoning the realm of facts.

Re-reading my comment, I realize it could sound like I was saying that the connection between Sanders and communism is justified. I don't think it is.
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