13 Reasons Why, et al.

[Emiliana]

Considering that I haven't actually watched it my ridiculously strong opinions about 13 Reasons Why Might be unjustified. But. I just don't think it's okay to treat suicide as the ultimate "Eff you," or to portray it as vividly as I've heard it is, for "entertainment." Yeah, it's probably not supposed to be "entertaining" as much as it is food for thought, but teenagers don't usually make that distinction.

A student who graduated last year from the school where I teach died by suicide Monday morning. And to be honest, my first question to my coworker when I found out that it was suicide was, "Do we know if he'd been watching 13 Reasons?" Maybe that's insensitive.

I didn't know him, but two of his best friends -- two of the three he addressed his g-d-mn suicide note to -- are my students. One of them came back to school today for the first time this week and he looked like hell. And a whole lot more of my kids were in the band with him, and it just really, really scares me that so many of my students are watching this, getting their understanding of the world and mental health issues from it. This is the second suicide from that graduating class (one just before the start of their senior year) and I'm so afraid that there will be more.

[Whistler]

I haven't watched it either. But tangentially related, the anime "Orange" is about a group of friends who get notes from the future asking them to prevent their friend's suicide, and it is super cute. I'm kind of scared to see how it ends (like, even if you had a really supportive group of friends, maybe that would only delay a person's suicide?).

I'm really curious about the show. I know copycat suicides are A Thing, so I recognize that news about suicides is sometimes censored. Has anyone here watched the show? Does it romanticize suicide?

[Shrinky Dink]

I haven't watched the show, but I read the book close to when it came out and to be honest I don't remember much from it. I mostly got the impression/reminder that our interactions with others really does affect their lives and we do need to treat one another better. Either way, I don't think it is a healthy show to watch especially if the person watching it has a connection to someone who has committed suicide. It's pretty well documented that being around suicide can increase the chances of attempting suicide especially with teenagers. I think I might watch the show just so I can better form an opinion and advise my friends on it especially if they are teachers or have teen kids of their own.

[yayfulness]

My wife watched the whole show. I saw maybe a third of the episodes, and I've read the full plot summary. While I appreciate that it is clearly trying to have a positive impact, there are some issues that really worry me. First and foremost is that it's basically playing out the ultimate teenage suicide fantasy of "I'm going to kill myself and you're going to be SO SORRY when I'm gone." If I had seen the series at age 17 in the middle of my first serious bout with depression, I'm not saying I would have actually gone through with suicide, but it sure would have seemed a lot more tempting. It was an idea that fit in perfectly with my thought patterns at the time. From the reactions to the show that I've read, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one. The idea of death making you famous, powerful, or immortal is a huge thing in the teenage mind, and it's incredibly dangerous.

There were definitely some strong points of the show. It took its teenage characters seriously. It was probably the best portrayal of sexual harassment and rape culture that I have ever seen in fiction. I wanted to like it. But ultimately, I just can't forgive it for that basic, fatal flaw. Hannah uses her suicide to accomplish something that she wants, and there have absolutely been times in my own life where, if I had though suicide would have accomplished something that I wanted, I would have been in serious danger of doing it.

You know what would have been a good story? The story of Hannah living her life, spiraling into depression, and making the tapes. And then the story ends with her death. "But what happens when everyone gets the tapes?" That's not part of the story. Hannah's story ends when she dies. Sure, the effects of her life live on in other people, but that's not part of her story. She's gone. She can't see it or do a thing about it. That's what happens in real life, so that's what should happen in the story too. Going on about how she lives on in other people just romanticizes the last, worst, and most tragic decision that she ever made.

I guess that kind of gets at another side of the problem, too. Most of the story isn't really about Hannah. It's about Clay. It's from his perspective; everything is filtered through his eyes. Hannah is the instigator, the narrator, the (dare I say?) manic pixie dream dead girl who interacts with every character in the present but with whom no present character can interact. In a sense, she's the god of the story, and she achieved her godlike status by killing herself. That message is honestly kind of terrifying.

[Portia]

I just listened to the soundtrack for Dear Evan Hansen, and I think it treats the topic of Teenage Mental Health ™️ with sensitivity.

[Marduk]

I watched the show. I liked it for a number of reasons, some of which yayfulness has laid out.

I think it is a good show, but it isn't a show for teenagers. It is a show for people who are in positions of support (parents, teachers, etc.) to better understand the situation students are in today. I think it still misses the mark in a number of ways, but to my knowledge it is one of the first shows in the "mainstream" to deal with some of these issues, and sometimes we have to get it wrong before we can get it less wrong.

[Shrinky Dink]

Ok, I've finished the show and I have to say that I agree with what yayfulness and Marduk have said above. This show has the potential to be very dangerous to teens and others who may be at risk for putting themselves in Hannah Baker's shoes. I do also think that this show (in the correct context) could help open and improve the discussion on sexual assault, consent, rape culture, PTSD, the pressure on LGBT youth, and more. I do really wish that the show would have emphasized more of the signs that might be exhibited before someone attempts to take their own life. I also think we need to recognize that the things that happened to and around Hannah are, tragically, all too common experiences for teens and young adults and we need to stop pretending that these things don't happen, or that the do happen but they only happen to other people.

I will say this, while Hannah did have a very rough time in high school, her use of the tapes to blame others is extremely manipulative and is probably one of the top three things I extremely disliked about this show.

***SPOILERS***
One of the things I really hope this show helps discuss and change is the way school administrators and teachers handle the topic of rape and suicide. The last tape is a recording of Hannah speaking with the school guidance counselor about when she was raped at a party and how she feels nothing and wants to end it all. Unfortunately, the only options she is offered about the rape is to either confess this guy's name, talk to the cops, and press charges, or just get over it because nothing can be done. The system completely failed her in this instance. Why the @*$(#%*@#%&$*#%& can't we have the option where survivors of sexual assault can just record and document the crime without pressing actual charges so the situation (and possibly the offender) can be freaking monitored?!?! I also feel that this counselor was stuck in a really difficult position. He didn't really have much of a legal recourse so his other primary option would have been to alert her parents about some of the things she told him. However, even that isn't an attractive option because even if he tells her parents and the prevent something terrible from happening, other kids may not come forward with their issues because they may think of him as a snitch who can't be trusted. It puts him in a terrible position where he isn't able to act either way and I hate to think of exactly how many teachers, school administrators, and more are stuck in this exact same position. /spoilers

I have a whole bunch of other thoughts on this show and the topics it touches, but I know if I start going into the other topics, I'm going to get onto a major rant about how our kids aren't being taught about sex, don't have adequate mental health resources available to them, our healthcare system sucks, and more and I just don't know if I have the energy for that right at this moment.

[Emiliana]

Ok, I've finished the show and I have to say that I agree with what yayfulness and Marduk have said above. This show has the potential to be very dangerous to teens and others who may be at risk for putting themselves in Hannah Baker's shoes. I do also think that this show (in the correct context) could help open and improve the discussion on sexual assault, consent, rape culture, PTSD, the pressure on LGBT youth, and more. I do really wish that the show would have emphasized more of the signs that might be exhibited before someone attempts to take their own life. I also think we need to recognize that the things that happened to and around Hannah are, tragically, all too common experiences for teens and young adults and we need to stop pretending that these things don't happen, or that the do happen but they only happen to other people.

I will say this, while Hannah did have a very rough time in high school, her use of the tapes to blame others is extremely manipulative and is probably one of the top three things I extremely disliked about this show.

***SPOILERS***
One of the things I really hope this show helps discuss and change is the way school administrators and teachers handle the topic of rape and suicide. The last tape is a recording of Hannah speaking with the school guidance counselor about when she was raped at a party and how she feels nothing and wants to end it all. Unfortunately, the only options she is offered about the rape is to either confess this guy's name, talk to the cops, and press charges, or just get over it because nothing can be done. The system completely failed her in this instance. Why the @*$(#%*@#%&$*#%& can't we have the option where survivors of sexual assault can just record and document the crime without pressing actual charges so the situation (and possibly the offender) can be freaking monitored?!?! I also feel that this counselor was stuck in a really difficult position. He didn't really have much of a legal recourse so his other primary option would have been to alert her parents about some of the things she told him. However, even that isn't an attractive option because even if he tells her parents and the prevent something terrible from happening, other kids may not come forward with their issues because they may think of him as a snitch who can't be trusted. It puts him in a terrible position where he isn't able to act either way and I hate to think of exactly how many teachers, school administrators, and more are stuck in this exact same position. /spoilers

I have a whole bunch of other thoughts on this show and the topics it touches, but I know if I start going into the other topics, I'm going to get onto a major rant about how our kids aren't being taught about sex, don't have adequate mental health resources available to them, our healthcare system sucks, and more and I just don't know if I have the energy for that right at this moment.

Having still not watched the show--I agree that there is a disconnect between students and school officials on all of these things. As a teacher of teenagers I sometimes find it hard to know when to let parents know about something and when to respect the student's autonomy. But if a kid is expressing serious* suicidal thoughts the parents HAVE to be alerted to that. They don't necessarily need to know all the whys and wherefores (in this case I think it would be okay not to tell them about the rape if she didn't want them to know), but safety trumps confidentiality.

*of course all suicidal thoughts should be taken seriously, but there is a spectrum from "I kinda sometimes think maybe it would be easier to be dead" and "this is the gun I am going to kill myself with on Friday." I don't know where on that spectrum Hannah was when she talked to the counselor, but "get over it cause there's nothing I can do" isn't the appropriate response to ANY of it.

[Emiliana]

I think it is a good show, but it isn't a show for teenagers.

Except that......it was created by teen idol Selena Gomez, all the characters are teens, it's based off a young adult book published by a publisher specifically for teens. So....saying it's "not for teens" doesn't really hold much water when everything about its marketing says "THIS IS FOR TEENS."

My coworker discovered that her 13-year-old was watching it at the other parent's house because "all her friends were watching it!1!!" Yeah, she put a stop to that.

And I'm coming around to where I think it would be good if teens were watching this with their parents or other trustworthy adults, or at least talking to their parents about it if the parent can't watch with them. It could be a great way to open up dialogue about difficult issues--which I will say I think is the best thing that's coming out of this--LOTS of people are having discussions about teen culture and rape culture and mental health that they weren't having a couple of months ago.

[Marduk]

Yeah teens with parents is cool.

And when I said that, I meant that the way it was designed wasn't for teens, not to say anything of the way it was branded.

[Portia]

As a reader of Vogue and Marie Claire and such, Selena Gomez has had her own mental health issues, including a type of nervous breakdown where she withdrew from public life. Adds an interesting aspect.

My sister doesn't have Netflix but I'll have to ask her if she is aware of it.